Providence is my greatest contention with a benevolent agent of the universe, for I have greater rewards than I deserve, and fewer than those who deserve less. Theodicy is the gristle of faith.
Hey Justin thanks for the shout out! I like this perspective but I have two follow up questions for you.
1. You seem to use happiness as the benchmark for well being. So because someone can be spiritual that doesn’t lead them to happiness it suggests that it’s not a dimension of well being. Fair. But if we’re talking about dissociable dimensions of wellbeing and happiness is one then is it possible that there are other dimensions that count as wellbeing but don’t correlate with happiness? If not then what’s the point of dimensions but if so then that makes things interesting. Seligman once told the audience that he really got into eudaimonia because it meant that he could have meaning and be miserable.
2. If however we were to use the “it’s not x that’s a dimension but rather aspects of x” policy then I think we should apply it all the other dimensions as well. Like spirituality, social connection is strongly correlated with well being. But it might be the case that, like spirituality, it’s only aspects of social connection that are relevant for well being. If I’m socially connected to a domestic abuser, it puts a strain on using social connection writ large for a dimension of well being yes?
I shouldn't have mentioned happiness, that was sloppy. I'm more of a dramatist than a philosopher. My intent was to compare a sense of safety with high neuroticism. Happy is a strange animal for an an alexithymic to parse. Though I do agree with Seligman.
As for question 2, being ignorant of the literature, if social connection is drawn so broadly as a dimension then it deserves to be cut apart by the razor of negative relationships, but I suspect social connection is better defined in practice as supportive or meaningful connections over abusive ones. I don't see how it could pass scrutiny otherwise.
Which goes back to the thrust of my popcorn meme: when "it's just obvious" brackets a concept, it's time to break it down and make sure it's really that obvious. Which is what I wanted to see discussed: What is spirituality anyway?
This is how they defined spirituality in their 19 dimension article:
"Deriving meaning from, and/or experiencing a
connection to something greater than oneself and may
include faith in a higher power."
And > 50% of the experts endorsed it as a part of well-being in the first round. So, there is definitely a meaning component in the definition. Does that help delineate this version of spirituality from the more harmful versions that you mentioned (like you deftly did for social connection in your above comment)?
That's a step in the right direction, but it'd need a time dimension. (1 or more times in the last a month? Year?) Like strong social connections, distance may weaken or worsen the effect—it's hard to jam with the universe if you can't see the sky and there's no grass to touch. A disconnect between having meaning and living meaningfully may create tension that negatively impacts well being. Does the impact of spirituality on well being improve when the practice is solitary versus engaging with a community of practice? It's not quite as fun dancing with snakes and speaking in tongues when there's nobody around to see it, but quiet contemplation has its own appeal (🙋). Does introversion factor in? Or is that where spirituality provides context for the social connection plane? Oxytocin's a hell of a drug when everyone's praisin' together.
Ask a preacher who leaves their church what they regret, and they're likely to tell you they miss the people more than the god (I.e. The Clergy Project). So how do you measure a spiritual dimension of well being distinct from these other factors? Especially when the thing greater than oneself is us.
I absolutely love your honest perception! Ironically I’m working on this exact topic … only through the lens of mine eyes with the same disclaimer only different… i do experience bouts of happiness.
The ending about happiness seals it.
I'm reminded of "The End of the Affair" by Graham Greene. 'God, I believe in you. Now stay out of my live.' Also not so happy with his conclusion.
Providence is my greatest contention with a benevolent agent of the universe, for I have greater rewards than I deserve, and fewer than those who deserve less. Theodicy is the gristle of faith.
Hey Justin thanks for the shout out! I like this perspective but I have two follow up questions for you.
1. You seem to use happiness as the benchmark for well being. So because someone can be spiritual that doesn’t lead them to happiness it suggests that it’s not a dimension of well being. Fair. But if we’re talking about dissociable dimensions of wellbeing and happiness is one then is it possible that there are other dimensions that count as wellbeing but don’t correlate with happiness? If not then what’s the point of dimensions but if so then that makes things interesting. Seligman once told the audience that he really got into eudaimonia because it meant that he could have meaning and be miserable.
2. If however we were to use the “it’s not x that’s a dimension but rather aspects of x” policy then I think we should apply it all the other dimensions as well. Like spirituality, social connection is strongly correlated with well being. But it might be the case that, like spirituality, it’s only aspects of social connection that are relevant for well being. If I’m socially connected to a domestic abuser, it puts a strain on using social connection writ large for a dimension of well being yes?
Awesome thought provoking stuff!
I shouldn't have mentioned happiness, that was sloppy. I'm more of a dramatist than a philosopher. My intent was to compare a sense of safety with high neuroticism. Happy is a strange animal for an an alexithymic to parse. Though I do agree with Seligman.
As for question 2, being ignorant of the literature, if social connection is drawn so broadly as a dimension then it deserves to be cut apart by the razor of negative relationships, but I suspect social connection is better defined in practice as supportive or meaningful connections over abusive ones. I don't see how it could pass scrutiny otherwise.
Which goes back to the thrust of my popcorn meme: when "it's just obvious" brackets a concept, it's time to break it down and make sure it's really that obvious. Which is what I wanted to see discussed: What is spirituality anyway?
This is how they defined spirituality in their 19 dimension article:
"Deriving meaning from, and/or experiencing a
connection to something greater than oneself and may
include faith in a higher power."
And > 50% of the experts endorsed it as a part of well-being in the first round. So, there is definitely a meaning component in the definition. Does that help delineate this version of spirituality from the more harmful versions that you mentioned (like you deftly did for social connection in your above comment)?
That's a step in the right direction, but it'd need a time dimension. (1 or more times in the last a month? Year?) Like strong social connections, distance may weaken or worsen the effect—it's hard to jam with the universe if you can't see the sky and there's no grass to touch. A disconnect between having meaning and living meaningfully may create tension that negatively impacts well being. Does the impact of spirituality on well being improve when the practice is solitary versus engaging with a community of practice? It's not quite as fun dancing with snakes and speaking in tongues when there's nobody around to see it, but quiet contemplation has its own appeal (🙋). Does introversion factor in? Or is that where spirituality provides context for the social connection plane? Oxytocin's a hell of a drug when everyone's praisin' together.
Ask a preacher who leaves their church what they regret, and they're likely to tell you they miss the people more than the god (I.e. The Clergy Project). So how do you measure a spiritual dimension of well being distinct from these other factors? Especially when the thing greater than oneself is us.
I absolutely love your honest perception! Ironically I’m working on this exact topic … only through the lens of mine eyes with the same disclaimer only different… i do experience bouts of happiness.
I experience what I imagine most would call happiness on either manic days or when my bank account is healthy.